niemandhier 11 hours ago | prev | next |

I wish Iran and Israel could just resolve their issues by competing who reaches the moon first or who can dig the deepest hole.

compsciphd 10 hours ago | root | parent | next |

Iran and Israel did get along before the Islamic revolution.

Rinzler89 10 hours ago | root | parent |

Edit after walthamstow's Feedback: The Islamic revolution which was a consequence of the CIAs interference?

walthamstow 10 hours ago | root | parent | next |

The Islamic revolution was blowback from the CIA/MI6 coup of the 1950s, and was not desired or engineered by the US.

The US and UK were actually quite happy with the Shah they installed, he allowed western access to Iran's oil.

Edit: the post I'm replying to has been heavily edited.

berkeleynerd 10 hours ago | root | parent | next |

They overthrew the democratically elected PM in favour of the autocratic Shah and both the West and Iran are still paying the price. https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/1953_Iranian_coup_d%27%C3%A9...

spwa4 10 hours ago | root | parent |

By that standard, the taliban are the result of socialism. Really:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_Afghanistan#Contemp...

The taliban came to power by stopping socialist massacres, most famously in a "torture prison" the socialists built. That is what made people choose their side. They killed less people in open warfare than socialist revolutionaries did in peacetime, and much less than the Soviets did when "helping the socialist revolution spread".

Despite what happened since, sadly, I think you'll agree things never got as bad in Afghanistan as they did during the socialist revolution they had there. Not even now.

Rinzler89 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

Sure. Doesn't that make the US and UK responsible for the blowback against their direct interference?

walthamstow 10 hours ago | root | parent |

You've edited your post to make it seem like this was what you said to begin with, but it wasn't

Rinzler89 10 hours ago | root | parent |

Aren't people allowed to make corrections to their posts?

walthamstow 10 hours ago | root | parent |

People acting in good faith often write 'edit' as an addendum rather than rewrite the post and revise history.

Rinzler89 10 hours ago | root | parent |

And people acting in good faith don't keep beating a dead horse and don't beat around the bush to distract from the main argument I made which was that the UK & US powers meddled to overthrow Iran's democratic government to get access to Iran's oil reserves at rates favorable to the US & UK oil companies but unfavorable to Iran's government and Iran's people.

Would you be okay if other countries messed with your government to cheat you out of your tax revenue?

Paradigma11 9 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

The revolution was a quarter of a century after the Shah came to power. It is a bit silly to state counterfactuals over such a long period in such an unstable and violent region. The Shah's reign was pretty popular during the first decade, it went quickly downhill after that. Mossadegh was only prime minister for 2 years. Two extrapolate in any way from this is ridiculous.

vbezhenar 11 hours ago | prev | next |

Congratulations! It's awesome to see this great nation strive.

liamwire 11 hours ago | root | parent | next |

It’s awesome to see totalitarian theocracies make advances in technologies that have parallel military uses?

Almondsetat 11 hours ago | root | parent | next |

You're right. Nations we don't like should stay in the stone age, especially the people.

wiseowise 9 hours ago | root | parent | next |

> Nations we don't like

Autocratic hellhole that oppresses its people, sponsors terrorist groups and supports kleptocracy that destroys Ukraine right now.

You’re phrasing “don’t like” like we’re talking about food preferences or color of clothes.

liamwire 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

A poor strawman. I emphatically wish the best for the Iranian people, but only their government would have you conflate the two.

InDubioProRubio 11 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

The totalitarian Theocracy is 40 years old- one generation. Before that it was and always has been the Persians. Intellectual powerhouse of the middle east.

Cairo-Bhagdad-Teheran - that was were its at, before they ran into the regions resource limit and adapted a religion that is great at eternal, zero-sum wars and paranoid delusions about external influence and bad at everything else.

liamwire 11 hours ago | root | parent | next |

I’m aware of the history of Iran, and your comment is entirely irrelevant. I can’t celebrate the advances of a country that’s openly hostile towards fundamental human rights. Nor do I think anyone else should, either.

delta_p_delta_x 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

> before they ran into the regions resource limit and adapted a religion

They didn't 'run into the regions [sic] resource limit and adapt a religion'; said religion was forced upon them by the sword. Iran's state religion (if you could call it that) was Zoroastrianism. There are zero Zoroastrians left in Iran; most of them have fled to... India. And said religion ripped through the Indian subcontinent, too; it is why Pakistan and Bangladesh are separate nations today.

lm28469 5 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

> The totalitarian Theocracy is 40 years old- one generation.

~70% of the current population was born under it, it's all it takes to completely destroy a nation

netsharc 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

God (or Allah?), your view of this religion is so biased and warped, I don't even know why I'm wasting time thinking maybe I can point some despicable idiot to some enlightment.

Ever consider that it's humans that are warped, and they abuse any institution possible for their own selfish means? Many religions fall victim to this, including those you view more favorably than Islam.

InDubioProRubio 10 hours ago | root | parent |

The idea is perfect, its claim to power is it being well suited to govern humans, which it declares flawed and warped. Thus making the idea flawed and warped and unsuited to govern actual humans.

yawboakye 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

you seem not to like how iran is setup, which makes it absolutely necessary that they’re able to put up a resistance should people who think like you attack them. as far as the universe goes, many beliefs about ways of human society organization exist. democracy works for one, not for the other. in fact, democracy has been the undoing of my home country. but it has made us subservient to the west, so naturally the west ‘supports’ our democracy. i wish we’d have some sense to re-examine this strange political experiment of ours, that’s barely 50 years old, and has given us nothing but misery. if we do, we might face opposition from the democracy shmemocracy faithfuls, in which case being able to violently resist any attack will be important.

The_Colonel 10 hours ago | root | parent | next |

> in fact, democracy has been the undoing of my home country

Are you sure that it's the democracy which is the cause of your country's trouble?

If we consider the counterfactual scenario where your country was not democratic, instead ruled either by some autocrat, theocracy, military junta or something similar, how would that go? While you can find examples of dysfunctional democracies, it still appears to have a better success rate than non-democratic systems.

yawboakye 10 hours ago | root | parent |

don’t get me wrong, i strongly believe that when a people are fit for it, democracy is the best political organization. but they have to be fit for it. the west transitioned into democracy when they were fit for it but are gradually transitioning out and hiding real political power behind government agencies that are unaffected by the whims and caprices of the crowd (aka electorates). miniature monarchies/tyrannies/etc reign in the west now. in my opinion, this makes sense and is invariably better especially in the world we currently live in. eg the united states cannot allow a series of bad elections to lead to its annihilation.

The_Colonel 7 hours ago | root | parent |

Well, I get that democracy does not automatically mean rainbows and unicorns and can get dysfunctional.

My question is - what's the alternative which would work better for your country? Looking at your profile, you're from Africa, where the typical alternative is either a military junta or a theocracy. Why do you think that those would lead to better outcomes in your country?

yawboakye 5 hours ago | root | parent |

monarchy. we have a lot more history with this organization. there still exists a strong allegiance to the tribe (original nation) over the independent, makeshift nation (ie contiguous pieces of land formerly ruled by a colonial master).

The_Colonel 2 hours ago | root | parent |

Would such a monarchy remain stable enough to survive? In the whole of Africa, there's only one absolute monarchy (Swaziland).

> there still exists a strong allegiance to the tribe (original nation) over the independent, makeshift nation

Perhaps too strong allegiance? In places where the centralized state becomes weak / collapses, clan violence tends to intensify (Somalia, South Sudan). These larger "makeshift" nations seem to have a somewhat calming effect on the ethnic conflicts.

vladms 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

> democracy has been the undoing of my home country ... given us nothing but misery

From what I see around the world for democracy to work it needs a certain degree of social cohesion, which some countries lack. The prevalence of some characteristics (ex: fanaticism, tribalism, corruption) are incompatible with democracy, and will ruin shortly attempts to have "working democracies".

Some western countries (not all, guess is obvious who :-p) tended to think simplistically that if the system works for them it will work for everybody so they try to "impose it".

What I have to admit now is that while this does not seem to always work, I don't consider "others" as having a much better alternative either.

meiraleal 8 hours ago | root | parent |

> Some western countries (not all, guess is obvious who :-p) tended to think simplistically that if the system works for them it will work for everybody so they try to "impose it".

It is amazing tho how they always impose it choosing the corrupt leaders that sell all state Enterprise and national resources for pennies to said western country "multinationals"

vladms 7 hours ago | root | parent |

I lived through a change from "authoritarianism" to "some kind of democracy". Many of the people in the country that took advantage of the population before (by being authoritarian) were the ones that sold the enterprises and resources and then used the money to build new enterprises.

Did that change much for me as an individual on the spot? Not much - they were people taking advantage before an after and most people were poor.

Did it change the possibilities on long term? It did. 20 years later there are more developments and opportunities than before under the "authoritarian" regime. Is it equally spread and for everybody? No. But neighbor countries that did not go through the change have it worse...

I am sure not all countries have this trajectory, but some do, YMMV

liamwire 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

That’s a lot of words to argue agent the right for humans to self-determine their own governance and fate. Sincerely, I see no compelling argument that can be made in support of the restrictions Iran places upon its citizens. Please make one, with specifics, if you’re interested in discussing it.

aniviacat 10 hours ago | root | parent | next |

If you truly believe that people who do not follow the laws of your religion will go to eternal hell, it does make a lot of sense, and really is completely morally sound, to push others into following the laws using any means necessary.

I'm not religious myself. But in my country, if someone is actively suicidal (say they are standing on top of a building, planning to jump) they are (forcefully) stopped. I think that's a good thing. Now, of I was religious, I would believe that sinning (and therefore going to hell) would be way way way worse to do to oneself, even when compared to suicide. So just like I agree with forcefully preventing someone from following their will to commit suicide, I would probably agree with forcefully preventing people from sinning.

If you are religious (and believe that sinning = hell), these laws make a lot of sense. Perhaps they should be even harsher.

noduerme 10 hours ago | root | parent | next |

There are several flaws in your reasoning.

Firstly, you conflate your personal feelings with the rule of law. You may personally agree or disagree with preventing people from committing suicide, or violating religious norms, but that should be completely separate from whether you think the government should enforce your personal belief on people who believe otherwise. In a democracy, the government is not there to enforce your beliefs, it is there to prevent other people's beliefs from overriding your right to have your own.

[edit: This is also an aspect of democracy that is not well understood in countries with a history of authoritarian or majoritarian rule. Democracies are an engine of creating higher efficiency and flourishing because they tend to protect minority views and are thus open to constant change and debate, which in turn are the drivers of economic growth. In authoritarian minds, change and debate are viewed as hindrances or dangers to the status quo; thus such societies stagnate. I'm practically explaining how Lebanon can't generate a home-made pager whilst a similarly sized country next door and carved up from the Ottoman empire at the same time... which prizes individuality and debate... can, well... nevermind]

Secondly, you make a false assumption that just because a society agrees with you on one thing, you must agree with it on everything else. It would be perfectly rational to be against both the death penalty and against abortion, yet many people are for one and against the other. You make a case that if you lived in a society where the morality pointed a certain way, it would be natural for yourself just to go along without questioning its hypocrisy. That is, quite literally, you are making a case for not thinking for yourself as an individual or seeing anything wrong with the contradictions of whatever society you live in.

It is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies, to improve them. You are making the most retrograde, anti-liberal case possible by saying you would not question the values you were surrounded by.

aniviacat 9 hours ago | root | parent | next |

> In a democracy, the government is not there to enforce your beliefs, it is there to prevent other people's beliefs from overriding your right to have your own.

That's why I gave the example of forceful suicide prevention. That is the law in my democratic, non-theocratic country.

Tell me how forcing someone not to commit suicide differs from forcing someone not to sin.

In my view it's the same: You are limiting someone else's liberty; forcing them not to do something you consider a grave mistake.

You personally may view personal liberty as more important: If you think people should have the liberty to commit suicide, it would be morally consistent for you to think people should have the liberty to sin.

I do not believe people should have the liberty to commit suicide. So if I was religious, and believed sinning to be a mistake far worse than suicide, it would be morally consistent for me to believe people should not have the liberty to sin.

> Secondly, you make a false assumption that just because a society agrees with you on one thing, you must agree with it on everything else.

> You are making the most retrograde, anti-liberal case possible by saying you would not question the values you were surrounded by.

I don't know where you got this from. I do question the values of society. It is my very own personal opinion that we should legally prevent people from making certain obvious mistakes.

(And yes, I am very anti-liberal in that sense. Not only do I agree with forcing people to wear seatbelts and not to commit suicide, I would even support banning caffeine.)

If I was religious, I would consider sinning to be the most obvious and most serious mistake of all. Hence, I would try to legally prevent people from making this mistake.

I find it very understandable that a religious government makes sinning illegal.

wiseowise 6 hours ago | root | parent |

> Tell me how forcing someone not to commit suicide differs from forcing someone not to sin.

Define sin first. Killing yourself results in death. Religious fanatics stretch definition of sin to whatever they don’t like.

Gays? Sin? Woman without hijab? Sin. Abortion? Sin.

> In my view it's the same: You are limiting someone else's liberty; forcing them not to do something you consider a grave mistake.

No, it’s totally not the same. And it’s not necessarily about mistake. Allowing people to commit unrestricted suicide would set a dangerous precedent. And on top of that a lot of inconvenience for people around.

yawboakye 5 hours ago | root | parent |

your last statement isn't grounded in reality. suicide is available to any determined person, and there are loads of them per year. what do you mean by unrestricted suicide? what's restricted suicide? people who want to commit suicide will, irrespective of what the law says. i'm yet to meet a suicide prevention program that refers to the strength of the law or the terror of the punishment.

yawboakye 9 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

there are graver flaws in your analysis.

his so-called personal beliefs are shared and deliberately engendered through education. one may say, i think suicide should be prevented at all cost. but when they do so they’re not expressing a personal opinion but rather the result of their education and training. and education is conducted with the law in mind. ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you.

democracy isn’t a minority rule, and conjuring up a so-called ‘majoritarianism’ is almost a dirty trick. the standout symbol of democracy is the election where the popular, by a mere enumeration of votes, wins the day. we are not allowed to disqualify ‘unqualified’ votes. do you have an example of a democracy where the minority wins?

> it is our duty as human beings to point out the contradictions and hypocrisy in ourselves and our societies.

not essentially our responsibility qua human beings but of heretics. the mechanisms for this sort of analysis and meta analysis are not by default available to all human beings. they’re acquired through education and through use. so whose responsibility is it to critique the current order? because most of us are blind to it. in the many challenges we face daily, bodily survival takes precedence, and when the current order doesn’t interfere in threatening ways, we can acquiesce.

aniviacat 9 hours ago | root | parent |

> ‘personal opinion’ from an adult who has been subjected to education is usually a misnomer. they’re not coming to it from independently perusing any data. so yes, the government is there to enforce your beliefs, the same ones they gave you.

Of course our values are influenced by the society we grow up in. If people weren't influenced by those surrounding them, I believe our society would significantly worse off.

(In my country the government does not have direct enough control over education to dictate the culture being taught. It's the teachers, or more general, the society as a whole, which teaches its values to young people.)

But I don't think it's reasonable to discredit someone's believes as their own, just because they were influenced by others. People who grow up within the same society do still often have opinions which differ greatly. So while people certainly are influenced by their society, they still shape their opinions themselves.

AnimalMuppet 4 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

But see, Jesus taught that sin isn't just what we do. It starts in our hearts, and then what's inside spills out.

Even if you're the government, you can't write a law or enforce a law against, say, adultery. You can stop - or at least reduce - the external behavior. But you can't change hearts by an external law. You just create people who are different on the outside than they are on the inside. "Hypocrites" is a term for that, which comes from the Greek word for "actors" - people who pretend to be something they're not.

That's not going to keep them from hell. It might keep them from jail, but that's not the same thing.

gryzzly 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

The fanatics in the gov are kept through aliance with other similar kleptocrats like Putin and Kims, has nothing to do with self determination

exe34 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

the people usually want democracy, but the leaders prefer autocracy.

yawboakye 10 hours ago | root | parent |

> the people

all peoples are not the same. this is an error of abstraction. if you were to enumerate attributes of a society fit for democracy, what would you require of its people? do all peoples already possess these?

gryzzly 11 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

the nation is oppressed, there were over 800 executions in 2023, most political. It wages wars through proxies that destroy lives in the locations where they are active. It has tortured and beaten up its citizens for as much as wearing a hijab wrongly. Are you actually an Islamist Revolutionary Guard or aligned with North Korea or Putin’s government to say that this is awesome?

aerodog 11 hours ago | root | parent | prev |

[flagged]

weweersdfsd 10 hours ago | root | parent | next |

In my experience, the people who that hate the Iranian government the most are actual Iranian citizen. That's not surprising really, because the vile theocratic government doesn't represent the values of an average Iranian, and stays in power only through violence.

It's a nation with lots of awesome people and culture, but a horrible government.

chx 10 hours ago | root | parent |

Certainly a lot of factors went into the destabilization of the Middle East but nothing beats France letting Khomeini leave in 1979.

brigandish 10 hours ago | root | parent | prev | next |

That you've decided to be cryptic tells me that you know what you're writing is objectionable. Either be clear and back up your sinister accusations, or don't share them. Both would be preferable and more useful than what you've written.

parshua 9 hours ago | prev |

[flagged]

Epskampie 9 hours ago | root | parent | next |

Do you think that Iran would do any better given the opportunity? The very fact that you where able to freely learn of these attrocities commited committed by your own leaders, is only due to you living in a democratic country. Where you to live in Iran, or China, Russia or any other dictatorship for that matter, the situation would be very different.

No one should deny that that is plenty wrong with the western world and it's actions, but to suggest that a totalitarian regime, that engages in suppression of women and gruesome violence against protestors, is somehow equal or even superior is just plain wrong.

parshua 7 hours ago | root | parent |

"Given"? Who do you think took the opportunity from the Iranian people in 1953? You have a very distorted idea of how it is to live in what you consider dictatorships. In fact, in most of those countries, people have a better idea of what's going on both in their own countries and in the world. They have access to two opposing points of view, unlike most people living in the west.

Nobody claimed Iran, Iranians or whatever they are doing is superior. I'm just sick and tired of the righteousness expressed in this forum. No matter how backwards is Iran and its government and atrocities committed by them against their own people, it pales in comparison to what the west has done just in the past two decades. They keep their shit to themselves so to speak. The Americans in this forum would do well to follow suit.

It is worth mentioning that those same backwards people are also one of the top producers of knowledge not just in the middle east[1], but the world[2], in many fields outproducing most middle tier European countries. Your idea of the world is comical, as such you do not understand it as it is.

The above are coming from a liberal Iranian who lives in the west, so take it for what you would.

[1]https://www.scimagojr.com/countryrank.php [2]https://ncses.nsf.gov/pubs/nsb20214/publication-output-by-co...